I was reading about this news sensation in China, Lou Jing who is singlehandedly drawing some pretty nasty barbs from the Chinese.
Read the pretty complete version of the story here, written by the OHN blog.
She is half black, half Chinese, raised in Shanghai by her single Chinese mom. Her black father left before she was born. Her parents were never married.
I don’t have a problem with any of the above, but some people don’t think the same way.
I don’t want to talk about racism, stereotypes, family issues or biases, that stuff is old school, and has been talked to death.
Instead, I want to ask:
What MOST determines your culture/race/nationality?
( I know most people will say a mix of everything)
1. What you look like (DNA),
2. Where in the world you were raised,
3. Or in what culture you were raised in?
Pick one and tell me why!
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Shelley
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 11:04 AM:
I think I get what you mean, but culture, race and nationality are separate issues. Nationality to me is what is on your passport., determined of course by where you were born, where you and/or your parents live and the relative laws of the land. Ancestry is another issue, more related perhaps to culture? and of course race.
Race is not so simple, though I'm tempted to say that's DNA. It is also I would guess (being vanilla white and therefore without credentials in this area) a matter of social pressure. Folks in Britain point out that Obama is as much white as he is black, but we call him the first black president.
Culture is the most complicated, IMO. Having grown up in Oklahoma I used to assume I didn't have any, but of course I do. My approach to life is very much coloured by the southern upbringing of my Mother and Grandmother; also the Germanic attitude of my father's parents.
A couple of months ago, I met up with a distant cousin, Frank, in Glasgow. Both he and his wife come from Irish immigrant stock, but were born and grew up in Scotland. Frank feels he is Scottish, in spite of his genealogical heritage, in which he is quite interested. Jackie, on the other hand, feels Irish. She was raised by a mother who grew up in Ireland and taught her Irish ways.
I've always wondered if a person could willingly change their culture, ie choose to adopt the ways of another. To some extent I suppose people who marry into a different culture (for me, an only child, marrying into a big Catholic family was a culture shock) choose this direction, I suppose. Also, culture is much like 'style' in that it can encompass everything from attitudes to choice in home decorating. If I have to choose one factor that most influences who you are, I would chose culture, mainly the outlook and expectations of the family in which you are raised.
An interesting question you raised. Hope you get lots more comments.
Joy-Mari
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 11:32 AM:
Wait, racism is old school?
To answer your question, though, it's all about self-identification.
Financial Samurai
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 1:43 PM:
It's just APPEARANCE unfortunately or fortunately.
Tiger Woods is half Thai, half black, yet why does America relate to him as black and not Asian?
Pres Obama is half white, half black, and I ask the same thing. Why isn't he considered a white man, rather than a black man?
geekinheels
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 2:08 PM:
I pick C. I was born in Korea, have lived the majority of my life in the U.S., is a U.S. citizen and is far more comfortable with English than Korean, and married a Chinese man. But my parents have raised me as a Korean and when people ask what nationality I am, I say Korean.
I read about Lou Jing too earlier this week and my heart broke for her. I think racism and racial discrimination is far more prevalent in Asia because the countries are far more racially homogeneous than in other countries. It certainly is a problem (for example, there is a lot of press in Korean newspapers lately about discrimination against foreign teachers living in Korea) and I really hope that these cultures will make a turn for a better soon.
FABULOUSLYBROKE
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 2:10 PM:
I do agree that nationality is different, but as for culture/race.. I feel very Canadian.
FABULOUSLYBROKE
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 2:11 PM:
That's a really good point. Appearance is first impressions until you find out their background.
But they may think differently as individuals.
So there are two perspectives to see this — individually, or holistically.
FABULOUSLYBROKE
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 2:12 PM:
I mean talking about it is old school.
People have talked it to death and no one has come up with a good solution or answer.
We're just too diverse to apply a one-blanketed rule.
I'd rather focus on positive subjects relating to it, like identity.
FABULOUSLYBROKE
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 2:13 PM:
This is a great answer!
You're right that they're all different issues, but maybe if we can tease out what makes someone feel more of one race than another, or why someone sees another person as more black than white…
These are all interesting issues surrounding identity.
I love that story about Frank and Jack!
Investing Newbie
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 2:44 PM:
Culture – I believe culture has its root in geography. People living in a certain environment just have different ways of doing/looking at things versus people who don't. You can even look within a country: New York vs. LA or transcontinentally, New York vs. London.
Race – None of the above. I believe that your race is subjective. Because a lot of my friends are multi-racial, I've learned to not take their race for granted by assuming they identify with their skin color; Instead I ask them what they would prefer to considered.
Nationality – Again, a question purely of geography. Look on your passport, you can't change that. Well, maybe if you pay someone as they do in the movies.
With a nation as diverse as the US for example, another thing you want to consider is Ethnicity. I think it erroneously gets encompassed as part of culture, but I believe it is a cross between culture and race. That's why I'm Haitian American and not just Haitian or just American.
Little House
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 2:54 PM:
What a great question. Unfortunately, I would have to say that appearance is what most people judge others by. Nationality can change. Say you are Canadian and marry someone American, then you apply for citizenship. Your nationality changes for your family to American (based on the definition of nationality). Culture is defined by your traditions, and most people wouldn't know what traditions you practice until they get to know you. They are only to able to base their opinions on what they see.
FABULOUSLYBROKE
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 3:03 PM:
Appearances are definitely a first impression. But does that also include talking?
I mean, looking at Lou Jing, she looks like a beautiful black girl to me. But when she speaks, she's speaking in Chinese, so… it's almost immediate that I'd know she has a different background.
Did that make sense?
FABULOUSLYBROKE
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 3:04 PM:
That's a good point to not assume that just because they look a certain way they're from a certain country.
Meg
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 3:12 PM:
While one can theoretically choose to identify as any race you want for whatever reason, but I think for practical purposes it depends on how others see you. That's mostly appearance, but if you live/lived somewhere like Nazi Germany or the U.S. during much of its history that meant even a drop of non-white "blood" could have consequences. Sad.
Mrs. Micah
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 4:13 PM:
For me it's probably mostly culture. Specifically, micro-culture of my family. My parents are 40 years older than I am (and I'm their oldest child), both have higher degrees, and both are prolific readers. They have dozens of bookshelves, books piled on every table. A lot of who I am was shaped directly by them and less by the cultures in which we participated. I've always felt a little on the outside of any group I'm in–I didn't watch the same movies as my peers (no Disney, I was watching classics of the 40s-60s), I read at a much higher level, and we didn't even have television when I was 5-15 (before 5 we had it and I watched Reading Rainbow). This intensified when my parents started homeschooling me in the 4th grade (the local schools were failing and the private school I'd been attending doubled its tuition).
I've run into other people who grew up in the same "culture," but none of us grew up together so I wouldn't say we formed the culture together. I didn't meet many of these people even in homeschooling circles, though I made a lot of friends there. In my experience it transcends race, though it may be a bit connected to class (still, at least one kid like me I knew had parents who slowly worked their way up to PhD level despite coming from a poorer background).
L.A. Daze
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 4:46 PM:
If somebody were to look at me, definitely 'what I look like' would make that person draw conclusions as to where i'm from. But oftentimes, everybody gets it wrong!
However, when I look at myself in the mirror, I see an Asian face with big eyes and subtle Western features, and I don't feel Asian. I feel European. This is all a result from where I grew up, how I grew up, and who I hung out with.
Filipinos expect me to speak tagalog (i'm not even Filipino!), Chinese people expect me to speak Chinese, and in Indonesia, they kind of stare at me, say "bule" (white person) and proceed to speak English with me.
As for nationality…i'm Dutch but only lived in Holland for 2 years of my life. But because my father grew up there, and because I speak Dutch at home, I feel more Dutch than Chinese or Indonesian.
I think I may have identity issues…hahaha.
By the way, I read an interesting article yesterday on Obama's brother – the Chinese were praising him for being competent in Chinese. Meanwhile, they are ragging on this poor half Chinese-half black girl. It's funny how that works out, isn't it? I'd link to the article, but I can't seem to find it right now…have to go to my work computer.
Airam
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 4:59 PM:
Appearance yes, but your forgeting the role history plays as well.
Both Woods and Obama are American. Historically the U.S. had a classification system that said that if you had even one drop of black in you, you were black. But now, although that classification system is no longer de jure (by law) it is still de facto (a fact/reality of life). Regardless of how much black/white/thai Woods has in him, in the mind of American's he is still and will always be a black man. Same goes for Obama.
And unfortunately that singleminded thought process has carried itself over to other cultures around the world. Which is how we get to Lou Jing today .
FB: I read this on ohellnawl a few days ago too. It's an interesting article for sure.
Lynx
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 6:07 PM:
DNA plays a big role, as that determines looks and first impressions. But body language, hair styles, clothing, language or dialects and way of carrying yourself also alters your appearance and is influenced by how you were raised and that plays a bigger role. I cant help but think of the lone black student in my high school, whos parents were a lawyer and a dentist and was about as white as you could be, like Carlton from Fresh Prince of Bel Air heh. We were in a football game against in his words "real black people" once and he was freaking out, after the game they were trying to teach him ebonics it was hilarious.
When hanging out with my white friends I'm considered the token Mexican but when I was working in an all Latino Roustabout crew in the oil fields and a Chevron exec I was talking to asked me what race I was my foreman shouted from across the yard hes a white boy like you. So I'm a product of two cultures but accepted by neither. It gives me a unique prospective on the outside looking in but also makes me feel somewhat like a foreigner in my own country.
I spent much of my childhood on the Rez, and we lived in the mountains so when I wasnt at school I was off in the wilderness living off the land. In college I connected more with the students from Eastern Europe and Asia than the Americans, I do not understand and struggle a bit with American body language and social customs. Flirting, joking around etc, I'm clueless
Is this guy threating me or playing? you know.
This spring my girlfriend and I were exploring some old mountain roads and we came out in the Ancestral Pueblo of one of the Reservations. When we saw a crudely hand painted sign for fry bread we whipped a u-turn to get something to eat none of the buildings had power lines and wouldnt surprise me if there was no running water either. Several people came out to greet us and started talking in pueblo until they realized neither of us understood it. They asked us if we lived around there, when we answered they said oh you both look like Ndins to us and no tourists ever come here. A little boy found some sticks on the ground and started practicing an eagle dance around us while we waited and an old man continued to speak to us in pueblo as others translated, he thought I was a medicine man who was on a very long journey. I've never felt as accepted or like I belonged like I did then. My girlfriend thought the same thing, everyone universally thinks shes Asian including my coworkers from China, shes Native but was adopted and raised in the city by a white family.
IMO I dont look Native American at all, but they always pick up on something and come up to me as though I am. Body language, way of carrying myself, something, they recognize me in public places out of a crowd before I say a word.
Investing Newbie
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 6:54 PM:
That's why I would have asked her how she identifies herself. If she says she's Chinese, then I can't call her anything different. That is how I believe she would answer the question.
@beskeie
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 3:18 PM:
For me it comes down to where I was raised. I grew up with an asian ethnicity, in south africa, and with mixed cultures. It inherently pisses me off when someone tries to fit me into a little box based on my outward appearance. I dont feel sorry for Lou Jing. I feel pride when I see her stand up because it points out how close minded these other folks are. We are living in a global economy, its time people get called out on their ridiculous behavior. Just my two cents…. great post FB!
Rick Francis
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 9:19 PM:
Race is an ill defined concept in our interconnected world. Biologically all people are the same species, you can divide species into subspecies according to appearance, but once interbreeding occurs that breaks down.
If you start with an Asian woman and Black man then how do you classify their daughter? If she marries a White man and has children how do you classify them? Why do we NEED to classify them? They are all people, why complicate that?
DNA evidence indicates that all modern humans ultimately trace their roots back to Africa. So you could validly argue that everyone in America could be labeled African Americans!
-Rick Francis
FB @ FabulouslyBroke.com
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 4:39 PM:
That’s true, but then we can fall back on culture and nationality, which is why I brought up the topic…
Lou Jing for me is an exceptionally interesting case, because like the article says, she “threatens” Chinese identity.
Normally, it is only Chinese who speak the language natively, but Lou Jing doesn’t necessarily LOOK Chinese, but to me, she IS Chinese because she identifies most with that culture, having been brought up in Shanghai from birth.
It’s an interesting thing for Chinese and other races to consider. Who is really “English”? Or “American”
We have to tack on names like “African-American” or “Asian-American”, but plain ol “American”, does that automatically mean Caucasians?
Have you ever heard of anyone say: “I am German-American”?
FB @ FabulouslyBroke.com
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 4:41 PM:
I think I still feel a bit of pity for Lou Jing. It must not have been easy not just for her, but for her mom to handle, or her family members.
It’s quite an interesting topic.
Thanks!
FB @ FabulouslyBroke.com
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 4:45 PM:
I think she calls herself Shanghainese.. I find it interesting that people declare she is NOT Chinese.
Perhaps not in traditional “Asian” looks but she’s Chinese to me.
FB @ FabulouslyBroke.com
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 4:47 PM:
I agree with your point about visiting very native areas. We went to a very native city once, and they all assumed we were natives until they realized we were from Canada. Based on the same reasons as you’ve pointed out.
That’s fascinating that body language can make you so well picked out of a crowd.
I never would have thought gestures or body language would even play a role.
This is incredibly complex and fascinating… wish someone would do a real study on it
FB @ FabulouslyBroke.com
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 4:50 PM:
That’s a good point — I had no idea about that classification system.
I suppose the Chinese never had to worry about that, as mixed kids generally looked mixed (half white and asian is typical) and they’ve never mixed with many other cultures, at least not as prevalently as white and asian.
I can see asian features in her face. It is only her skin that makes her “black”. Which is all the Chinese can see.
Very interesting thoughts
FB @ FabulouslyBroke.com
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 4:55 PM:
You know I think there’s a real double-sidedness.
Perhaps the newspapers were trying to present one view of Chinese as being open-minded and “Western”, when in fact they’re going through a cultural change of sorts in this modern transition.
Not ALL Chinese are like that, naturally, but some are quite orthodox and others are not. It depends on what you read and where.
FB @ FabulouslyBroke.com
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 4:59 PM:
Ooo I never even thought about class and social status distinctions
That’s a good point.
We have so many factors playing in with what makes each of us individual. Such a cocktail of factors!
FABULOUSLYBROKE
on Nov 20th, 2009
@ 12:17 AM:
Any time!
I'm glad you finally found them.
I think it breaks down so far to: Caucasian/Whites = NOT DNA.. everyone else.. DNA/appearances.
I'm spammy, I guess
eemusings
on Nov 20th, 2009
@ 1:21 AM:
This is a really hard question for me. I'd say for me it's the way I was rsied. I still don't know what I identify with, to be honest. I'd say the majority of my friends are Asian and in a new situation I would probably gravitate to a fellow Asian on first instinct. When I'm asked where I'm from, I say I'm Chinese Malaysian. But I don't speak anything but English, and being "in between" – not a European NZer or Chinese is sometimes awkward. There are great elements in both cultures, and some not so great. I've rejected way too much of my ethnic heritage to identify with it, but a lot of the values I was raised with, I still believe in.
Alexandra
on Nov 19th, 2009
@ 10:25 PM:
For me, it's definitely not the DNA. I look like any other white person.
For me it would be the mix of culture + position on the globe that determines who I am.
I guess these go hand in hand.
And the more you travel around like I did, the more cultures you're exposed to which you end up englobing in YOU in the end.
PS: Thx for the comments on my blog. They didn't appear till now b/c my spam filter is acting up! But they're up now!
@geckomayhem
on Nov 20th, 2009
@ 7:16 AM:
The culture you are raised in determines which culture you fit into, but your parentage determines your race. In a society that is multi-racial, there is also multi-ethnicity, and so oftentimes the line between cultures can become blurred. It doesn't matter what your DNA structure is, though. The culture that you are brought up in determines how you think and feel, react towards and view anything in life.
My step-daughter is half American and half Japanese, but culturally she is 100% Japanese. Our soon-to-be-born daughter will be half Japanese and half Kiwi (New Zealander), and the chances are that she will have a good blend of both cultures and be bilingual from birth (so to speak). I think that the diversity in cultural background is just as amazing as the variety in racial blends.
FB @ FabulouslyBroke.com
on Nov 20th, 2009
@ 8:04 AM:
That’s a good supporting point for culture.
I feel as though culture for me is the most defining for who I am, but many people may not see it at first glance.
FB @ FabulouslyBroke.com
on Nov 20th, 2009
@ 8:08 AM:
That’s a good point about language.
Can someone be “Chinese” or “French” if they don’t speak their “mother” tongue??
I mean, even those who consider themselves American, have European roots somewhere. Not taking it too far back to Africa where we all came from, but some know that their parents were German, or Swedes… so technically people feel as if they should know the language to identify as such.
Rae // theNotice
on Nov 21st, 2009
@ 6:17 PM:
I think for society it's largely the first one (which is really upsetting sometimes), because it's the easiest to "see". I personally am most affected by the second. I was born and raised in Canada, as was mother, so I identify as a Canadian. Yes, I look Chinese, and yes, I'm 100% genetically Chinese… but I don't speak the language, I don't identify with the culture, and I wouldn't call myself Chinese. I'd call myself Canadian. *shrugs*
FABULOUSLYBROKE
on Nov 22nd, 2009
@ 9:21 PM:
So you wouldn't call yourself "Chinese-Canadian" then?
Zofie
on Nov 23rd, 2009
@ 9:33 PM:
I think that it is the culture in which you were raised that determines your nationality, race and culture. Genetics may play a small role in personality and physical appearance, but your cultural setting is where you learn how to speak, behave, perceive and shapes views. For example, I visited Cuba, Ethiopia and South Africa. In each country, I was confused for being native, strictly based on my physical appearance. It went so far that people would become angry with me when I could not speak with them in the country's native tongue. Of course, I did not even understand why people were upset with me until I got back home and asked people from that country (and culture) why this had happened. Physical appearance (DNA) means nothing in the larger context of society and culture.
FB @ FabulouslyBroke.com
on Nov 24th, 2009
@ 8:23 AM:
Wow! I can’t imagine getting there, and having people angry at you for no reason (that you could have understood at that time). :\
Good points.
melissa
on Nov 25th, 2009
@ 6:46 PM:
show of hands please:
for those of you non-chinese/non-asians, do you actually CARE if chinese/asian people are racist? be honest.
i sure don't.